Avoiding Hard Conversations in the Workplace

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of the Stable Living Podcast. My name's Shane Jacob, your host. I thank you for taking your time to be here with me today. Talking about some real world, real deal problems in the workplace today. Okay. Real deal, real world. And I know, cause I'm in it and I'm living it. And I think you are too.

So today I want to discuss why managers leaders, why we avoid, why managers avoid hard conversations, okay, and how much it costs and what to do about it, okay? Because here's the deal, managers, people in your company and in mine, avoid hard conversations. So what does that even mean? What is a hard conversation? I'm gonna come back to that.

But just by avoiding conversations, poor performance continues, okay? It keeps happening. We just let it slide a little bit. The same mistakes keep happening. There's an incredible cost to this, okay? Nothing actually improves.

The Cost of Avoidance in the Workplace

And the reality is is that we're paying people to make the same mistake over and over again. Our best employees see it. They see the hard conversations being avoided. They see other people with poor performance. Our high performers get frustrated. Then they start to disengage.

And small issues don't stay small. They turn into customer problems, missed deadlines, HR situations, it just, it's expensive, okay? It's costing us in lots of ways. So, and this isn't an occasional thing, this is happening every day, okay? At least every week.

What Makes a Conversation “Hard”?

So what's actually happening, okay? What even is a hard conversation? I mean, what's hard about speaking to someone? The problem is, is that what we perceive is, it's easier to think, that's not that big of a deal, okay? And I don't want to make this awkward, or I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings, or I'll deal with it later.

And the reason we procrastinate it, the reason we don't want to think it's a big deal, and the reason that we say that we don't want to hurt other people's feelings, now this is real, is because, well, what happens is we do nothing.

Fear and Procrastination in Leadership

Okay, so there's a little bit of fear wrapped up in it, because really, what's so hard about it? What's so hard about speaking to somebody? Here's what happens here. Here's what I see on a consistent basis that unless we're managing it, okay, here's what I used to see a lot on a consistent basis is, well, we've identified a problem and it's what somebody's doing, and we need to change how they're doing it, and I need you to talk to them about it and address this situation and make it go away, okay? That's end of story.

Well, I don't want to talk to him. You talk to him. Well, I don't want to talk to him. You talk to him. Why not? Why do you think we're avoiding, okay?

The Real Reason Managers Avoid Difficult Conversations

Of course, why we're avoiding is because we perceive it to be quote unquote hard. But what does that mean? What it truly means is we have some fear wrapped up in it. That's why we procrastinate. That's why we put things off. That's why we're making all these excuses of why we're not dealing with it.

And the real result is, is it's just like a horse that by doing nothing, we are actually training people. We're teaching them, we're training them to be poor performers. By communicating nothing communicates volumes, okay?

It tells the person that, by the way, did you ever think that we owe them? We owe them the honesty of an honest evaluation of what they're doing in this workplace. What if they think that they're doing 100% and they're off on the left field doing horrible?

They're not meeting the expectation, they think they are. I mean, that's part of this too.

The Fear Behind Avoidance

But because of the perceived problem, so what is the perceived fear? What's that wrapped up in? Why are we not addressing these situations and having these quote unquote hard conversations, okay?

Because when we don't have the hard conversations, like I said, they repeat, then it gets worse. Now we have a problem. Now we have an HR problem. And the real truth is is that the managers aren't avoiding the problem because of the employee problem. They're avoiding it because of themselves.

The fear wrapped up inside of the discomfort of, it's inside of them. It's not really the problem is really out there, okay? They don't want conflict. And the real reality is, is they don't want somebody to be upset at them, okay? They don't want to be perceived as unfair, as mean, unlikeable, any of that, okay? They want to be seen as a good leader.

And so a lot of times we can have ideas like, well, if I talk to them, they'll get mad. If I talk to him, they'll get defensive. They always get defensive when I try to, you know, this and that, the other, when I try to give them a new course of action or when I give them feedback or blah blah blah, okay? They always get mad, and I don't, I don't, I don't want that. I don't want them getting mad at me.

And so it's easier just to stay quiet. And so we avoid it, and it costs in corporations and in any size of company, including my company, it costs a fortune. Our leaders and our managers are protecting how they're perceived instead of going out and correcting the performance problems. And that's what the deal is. That's a trade-off that the business pays for, okay?

The Compounding Cost of Avoiding Conversations

Like I said, it's just words. So what, why is it so hard? You know, because of the manager, what the manager is making it mean about themselves. If they do have the conversation, they might not like me. This might blow up. You know, they could, they might have a, you know, pitch a fit. They might this and that. They might go to HR. They might get defensive. They might tell somebody and start a rumor.

So they avoid it. And every time they avoid it, it compounds.

Real-World Example: When Avoidance Costs Money

So, and I know this in my company, we had it. It's not, In my company we have, we use The Worth Work System, and we are serious about “judge the work, protect the person.” Okay, but we have a few, some subcontractors that are not involved in our company that come here and work.

And so we had a subcontractor, an individual that came here, and for an extended, and the performance was poor, okay? And it got worse over time, and nobody did anything for a long time. Why? For all the reasons I described, because it's a quote unquote hard conversation to try to get this thing to change.

So at this point, the customers were affected. It's costing us a bunch of money. We have unhappy customers, not once, multiple times. And I look at this and I'm like, why didn't anybody stop this head on, face, nip it in the butt, okay?

And that's because, well, nobody wants to talk to him because he always gets defensive and he reacts emotionally. So people avoid the conversation, okay? Of course, who wants to go talk to somebody who they think is going to be upset with them.

So one avoided conversation that could have been had in the very beginning turned into multiple cost, customer problems and cost us a lot of money. And that's how it works. Okay.

The Real Problem: Beliefs, Not Communication

The real problem is not a communication problem, okay? The real problem is a thought process and a belief system process problem, okay? So this is exactly where The Worth Work System comes in.

And the core principle, like I said is “judge the work, protect the person,” okay? Most workplaces do the opposite, and that's why people get defensive. And most human beings do, because we haven't been taught to separate behavior from the individual.

We come into this world and our brain makes meaning out of everything that we do and say, and everything that is done or said to us makes meaning about our value as a human being. That's just the way it is. And that's the default setting that human beings have, and unless there is someone there to help you understand that you can separate those two, then you're going to make everything that you do mean something about yourself, about the kind of person you are, about your deservedness, about your worthiness, about your value as a human being.

How good of a human being are you? I mean, are you this kind of a human being or this kind? If you're listening and not watching, I'm saying, are you a lower-class human being or an upper-class human being, okay? And that's why people get defensive, because as soon as they hear that what they're doing isn't working, they take that to mean something about their value. So then they get defensive, it happens automatically.

Why Defensiveness Happens Automatically

They don't want to get defensive on purpose. It just happens. “Hey, Shane, we need you to change what you're doing here, because what you're doing isn't working.” Boom.

“Well, I was taught,” here's my defensiveness. I don't even know what's happening. The back of my brain's going, they think something's wrong with you. You're not a very good employee. You don't know how to do your job, blah, blah, blah. All these thoughts are boom, boom, boom, firing off in the back of your brain.

And so you're getting defensive, you're getting angry, you're trying to justify, you're making excuses. Do you think you're focusing on solving this problem and doing it the way it needs to be done so you can be more effective and productive and help the company be more profitable so you can make more money and be happier at work and all of that? No.

The answer isn’t no, it's hell no. Defensiveness is counter to productivity is what it is. There is nothing good about defensiveness that helps a company.

Defensiveness Hurts Performance and Relationships

It doesn't even help, have any good place in any relationship, really. And I don't know anybody that's gonna totally eliminate it, but The Worth Work Principle is the beginning of the separation of behavior, the doing or the work from the individual, okay?

And that's why people get, because people believe, “Hey, something's wrong with me.” They're making what they have done that is unacceptable, meaning they are unacceptable. Not on purpose, not consciously. Most of all this happens automatically, subconsciously, and all it does is show up as anger, and we're not really sure why.

We can come up with a bunch of reasons. Well, they told me this and they did this and I was trained this way and I thought it was this. They didn't clearly communicate and tell me that it was this and that and the other. And our brain goes back and tries to prove that we're okay by making excuses, absolving ourselves from responsibility and coming up with all of this stuff that none of it helps us change, like I said, and move forward.

And that is why people get defensive. And because they get defensive, they get avoided by our managers. That's the problem. That's why a manager's avoid the conversation.

Separating the Person from the Work

So when you separate the person from the work, okay, managers and everybody understands that in the culture. Then managers can say, “Hey, I want you to know, first of all, this is not about you. I just want to focus on the doing, the work part over here, cause there's some things that you're doing that we need to change how they're doing so that we operate better, okay?”

“This is not acceptable. This needs to change.” Without it, first of all, we make sure that we don't have language that attacks the individual.

Okay. And as soon as the employee can hear it's about what I'm doing, not about who I am, okay, they not only have to hear that, they have to understand that, the separation, okay? We're not talking about you. You're over here. We hold you in high, perfect regard. We totally respect you. This has nothing to do with you. This only has to do with your doing.

And if all of this is framed and prepped and set up and it's understood in the front, when the manager comes and says, “Hey, we just need to talk about what you're doing.” The defenses go down. This is the ship, because now it's not about who I am.

We're clearly saying we perfectly respect you. We're keeping you over here, but what's happening, judge the work, protect the person, okay? And we must judge the work, because that's why we're there.

Accountability Without Attacking Value

If we don't do good work or if I don't do good deeds in my lifetime, what we do matters. What we do matters. The fact that it doesn't affect our value is not a license for poor performance or bad behavior. It just means it doesn't affect our value. That's all it means.

It doesn't mean that we don't need to correct it. It means that we're still responsible for everything that we do. It just means it doesn't affect our value.

What Changes When You Apply The Worth Work System

Okay, so, what changes inside of a team when, as you apply The Worth Work System and understand it in your company, implements your managers and everybody implement the system?

Before, where before you had managers avoiding conversations, you had employees getting defensive, make repeated mistakes, standards drop, customers pissed off, costing so much money again and again and again.

What happens when you implement The Worth Work System is this. Conversations happen much sooner, as soon as you can identify it. It's okay. The pressure's down, the manager, okay. Now I'm not opposed to hard conversations, okay?

Just so you know, I think that human beings, I, myself, and I believe that it's a good practice to embrace the difficult in life, okay? So I'm not advocating, I'm not advocating, I'm not for avoiding hard conversations. I'm just saying it's not easy and it's not normal, it's not natural, and our managers are avoiding it.

And guess what? You've made them left distant. To the degree that our managers and the people that we're managing understand The Worth Work Principle is to the degree the tension goes down, the understanding goes up, the defensiveness just comes way down.

And so now we're open, we're teachable, we're humble. Humble meaning open-minded and teachable. Because we can take a look at our work and we can judge our work without having it make us feel bad about ourselves.

So we have conversations happen much sooner because both sides are more willing to talk about it and improve because it doesn't have these high stakes of attacking our meaning. There's less emotion. There's more clarity. There's much faster correction, like I said, and we can set clear expectations, and then it doesn't take very long, and we have higher standards all the way across the company. Okay.

Removing Defensiveness to Improve Performance

When the person is not under attack, that's when we can actually move the needle forward, and we can actually, the work can actually have improvement long-term, and people are willing to do it. Okay.

So again, defensiveness, just to be clear, defensiveness comes from this. When people say they're answering the question, what does this negative feedback mean about me, okay? When we remove what we're talking about means nothing about you, it's just the doing, it's just the work.

When we can remove that question that this means nothing about you, okay, we hold you in perfect high regard. I love you, this has nothing to do with you, we need to fix this, okay? I don't think I love you is appropriate in the workspace, but the point is I hold you in perfect high regard.

The what you're doing, not so much. We need to fix this over here. We need to change it. And people are willing and open to be able to do that when they know that their value is not at stake.

When that question is removed, what does this mean about me, people can focus on what happened, what needs to change, what is the improvement look like? And now I'm starting to get improvement instead of all this resistance.

Real Results from the Worth Work System

Since we have implemented this at my company, Jacob Livestock horse feed company, right here in Las Vegas, where I live, where I am, I'm involved in this company every day, six days a week. Small company, we have a total of like 10 employees, and a portion of those are part time. Half nearly are part time.

So this is almost a micro company, but inside of our unit, since we have applied this, and by the way, all the other, every single other company where it has applied these principles, we have easier conversations.

And by the way, people come through the door differently than they used to here. I can't attest to everywhere else because I'm not there every day, but people come through our back gate and show up at work with a different attitude than they did before.

Because we have made it clear, I have made it clear, and I've made it clear to our managers that we have a no tolerance policy for disrespect. Which doesn't mean that people will never disrespect each other, but what we say is, is that we have, if you're ever disrespectful and you don't make it well and apologize, you have no place here.

Building a Culture of Respect and Accountability

Because our goal is to hold everyone at all times in perfect high regard and have ultimate respect for the individual, regardless of what they do. You heard me? Regardless of what they do.

Now that's a big deal. I mean it. I mean, regardless. And that's a lot. I mean regardless, okay, of what you do. It's just what you did, okay? We're not making that mean anything about you.

Now you may have done something that we can't tolerate here and you have to go. We still hold you in high regard, and we respect you. Unfortunately, you can't work here anymore. We wish you well, and you're off on your way.

But we still have, that doesn't mean anything about your person, your individual self, your soul, your human, human-ness.

Improved Culture, Trust, and Performance

Your human-ness still has the same value as mine or anyone else here at this company. And we've had better, we've had happier people. We've had a better culture. People get along better. I interact with people better. They're more open to me.

When the boss comes, they don't, you know, they're more open, because they feel like, you know what the deal is? The trust shot up.

When they accepted the idea of the separation and they knew that they started to believe that I hold myself and them at the same level of value and I do my best to act that way, the trust went up and the defensiveness went down, okay?

Why This System Works

This is not theory. This isn't some idea out of a book. This is something that I live and that we're doing every day right here at my company and many other companies that are starting to implement The Worth Work System, The Worth Work Principle.

If your managers are avoiding conversations, and they are, you're paying for it. You're paying for it every day, every week, every month. And it's not because your people lack skills, okay? And it's not because they're too chicken to go have the hard conversation.

It's mainly because your team doesn't know how to separate the person from the work and understand that. And if you want a team that requires less management and produces more, this is where it starts. This is where it begins, okay?

Creating Self-Reliance in the Workplace

I bring this into organizations. You can book me for a speaking or for a training. And that's one of the things. This is what, one of the things that I help do is I help organizations have people in teams that contribute more and require less, less emotional management, less people issues, less people friction, yet less managerial drag, less HR problems, all of that.

Because what we're doing through with The Worth Work System is helping people to become more self-reliant in the workplace. And that's what you want. Self-reliance in the workplace.

That doesn't mean self-directed that people go off on their own way. It means that they require less management about people issues, less management, less time committed to managing people's feelings, and more time committed to productivity.

And that is what The Worth Work System is all about. Thank you for being with me today. Remember, judge the work, protect the person. Stay with me.

Fixing Workplace Performance Problems Starts With Better Leadership Conversations

Most workplace performance problems are not caused by lack of skill. They are caused by avoided conversations. When managers delay feedback, poor performance continues, accountability breaks down, and businesses lose time, money, and consistency. Leadership teams dealing with disengaged employees, repeated mistakes, and ongoing HR issues are often facing a breakdown in how feedback and accountability are handled. The Worth Work System provides a practical approach to improving workplace performance by teaching managers how to separate the person from the work, reduce defensiveness, and correct behavior earlier. When leaders apply this consistently, teams become more accountable, require less oversight, and produce more reliable results.